Sticky: Uncommon Sense Webcast – December 23, 2010


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***If you are having difficulty playing the show; right click on segment and ‘open link in new window.’ That way you will be able to control what you listen to and be able to go back and listen to whatever portion you like once again***

Folks write us in e-mails – AND WE REALLY APPRECIATE THAT… …but…. …our comments section has been enabled, so please leave us your thoughts here, and don’t be bashful, we can take it!

1. Intro – Signs Of The Apocalypse – Captain America – ‘Nomad’ – American Exceptionalism – Swear Bucket – Batman & ‘Nightrunner?’ – Robin Hood – Snobby French – The Cleaner’s Reality TV Show

2. The Real Way It Would Be With Batman & Nightrunner – Brett Favre Down For The Count – John’s Friend Hoss – Leaving It To Judges – Uncommon Poll On Dealing With “Happy Holidays” – Garlic Crosses

3. Slow Hand – Illinios’ New Law – The Cleaner’s Scarf – Gay African?

4. Going Back To Jimmie John’s – Pat Robertson – Cheech & Chong – Phil Jackson, Zen Christian – Pull An Eric Little – Stupid NBA & NFL Team Moves – Ricky Gervais, Evangelist Atheist – What To Expect From Kids Once They Get To College

5. What The Cleaner Would Say To Cheeky Bobby – Bible Boot Camp, Will It Be Effective In The Long Run? – Christians & Education – Falling Short Of ‘University’

6. Steve Winwood, A Brother – Christian Babylons – A Harvest Passover Experience – Hank Hanegraaff ‘The Bible Answer Man’ – Lordship Salvation – Salvation vs. Discipleship – Some Words From Pastor MacDonald At Moody’s Founders’ Week – Following Jesus With Your “Whole Heart”

7. Dissecting Some Of Pastor MacDonald’s Preaching

8. Salvation Immediately Or More Than “60 Seconds?” – 60 Seconds IS TOO LONG! – John MacArthur’s Views On Aiding In Your Own Salvation – Who Feels The Need For A Savior More? – More Dissecting – Mocking The FREE GIFT – Salvation By ‘Atonement’ Or ‘Attainment?’

9. Mischievous Parson – New Batman Theme – The African-Americans Of America Have Become Our Version Of The Palestinians – “If It Moves Tax It, If It Works Regulate It, If It Fails Subsidize It” – The Parson’s Oreo Story – Chuckleberry Dim Agrees With Moosechelle – Earthquakes, Floods & Polar Bears

10. The Notebook – Guess Where This Is? – Islam Is Taking Over – Saddam’s Qur’an – Put It On eBay – Kieth Ellison’s Plan To (God Willing!) Make Borders An “Irrelevancy” – One Final Observation On James MacDonald – Michael Moore’s ‘Sicko’ Too Sick For Cuba – An Uncommon Merry Christmas

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16 Comments

  1. Fascinating thread. Seems obvious to me but veiled to brother Joe. Crux of the matter is solved by knowing difference between salvation and decipleship. The two are inter-related because the one must preceed the other and religion has greatly confused the two.

    I love you Joe and appreciate your ernest questioning. I like word pictures. Imagine an apple tree in time lapse photography. The apple tree was made to be an apple tree. What does it do? It blossoms in spring, produces fruit bearing seed which drops to the ground providing food and seed that grow into more apple trees.

    Imagine that apple tree working hard like a body builder to grow more apples. That’s silly! The apple tree simply is a fruit machine “naturally” bearing fruit in its season. It doesn’t need to validate or “work” to do what God designed it to do. Neither are believers required to validate their salvation by working like a body builder to produce good works. It happens because of the work of God’s Spirit in the life of the believer. Were the fruit produced out of obligation or merit it would be unacceptable to God. He is Lord of the harvest.

    May it be so in your life. The ONLY work we should do is to enter into God’s rest. Allow God to work freely by His Holy Spirit. Only believe! Search the scriptures my friend. God has done a complete work in you already. It is finished! Be a good apple tree. Once you see the unlimited length breadth and width of God’s love in what He did for us at the cross the fruit will come forth freely and sweetly to His glory. Stand still and see the salvation of our Lord!

    Love Always,

    John Hora

  2. The Parson /

    Joe, the first 3 of 18 segments can be found at http://www.gracebeliever.com. I think if you listen and read those two books you’ll have a better understanding and we may even be able to come to an understanding of this issue.
    Until that time
    John

  3. Nevermind John – just needed to click the home page to see your posts…

  4. Hey John,

    Ironically, I just got back from shooting at GAT…and my wife is complaining about leaving my guns up on top of the fridge instead of back in the closet. So I guess the answer is, upstairs to put it away. I love book reqs, so I’ll put those on my list next library visit. I still don’t know the link where you’re posting your messages on James’ speech and these latest clips of James – let me know and I’ll be sure to listen to everything there too. But it’s on you if it leads me to writing another book of a post 😉

    Thanks again for the forum, and taking the time to respond. Merry Christmas to you too!

    Joe

  5. Hey Dave,

    Thanks for the response. I’m still going contend you’ve made his speech into something it’s not. The audience at Moody was one full of believers who claim to have come to Christ – not a building full of the unsaved or even a regular Sunday crowd. As such, he’s touching on the aspect of how to know you really have that gift of Salvation. “Has this happened to me – do I really have a personal life changing experience with Jesus Christ” he says (3 min 45 sec in)…still in the introduction. Immediately after that, “do you hold up a ‘certificate of decision’ or can you point to a life of discipleship?” Discipleship does not save you (this audience probably all believes they are saved), but it can be an indication that you truly received that gift. I go back to the Obama example – yes, he can hold up that certificate, but can he point to anything that shows the Spirit is in him? Discipleship is a product of God, and what better way to know you have God working through you than to just look at your track record of life choices since being born again. Does God work through the unsaved? I don’t see how He can as the unsaved are by definition without God. I’ll reiterate for anyone who wants to answer here (asked it a couple times): How do I become Saved (what do I do)? How do I *know* that I am?

    The answer to the first is apparently not “because I made a choice”, or “I acknowledged” anything, or “I accepted Him”. Those were shot down in here. For the second question, I have no idea what you guys would say since you can’t point to how you live your life as proof that you got it – nor can you point to a time when you made a decision because there’s no decision/commitment to be made. Doing so makes you a “Lordshipper”. The two (becoming Saved and knowing you’re Saved) are mutually exclusive to the act of Salvation itself. After all, atheists can “do good” but certainly aren’t saved. But one is a by-product of the other – Discipleship shows through if you’re Saved. I don’t question your Salvation, Dave, because you show me very clearly that you got it. I’m just completely lost as to how looking at the way you live your life, whether it’s in sin or is in ambition to be like Christ, gets claimed as heresy when the Bible is clear that we need to examine our lives.

    I’m still saying the clip about pagan to profession in 60 seconds is not in context with what you’re claiming he’s saying. He’s not talking about one coming into faith, he’s talking about churches that don’t take the gospel seriously in bringing people to Jesus. It kinda scares me if you guys do what he’s talking about there (I know you don’t) – run down the list of yes’s and no’s with someone and walk away thinking they got it. It’s your discipleship, but their Salvation – it should be taken seriously and laid out for them so they don’t fall into the “I’m good, happy, and Saved – now I can sin!” trap. How do you stay out of the trap of continual sin if you cannot reflect on past decisions? I hope people don’t go up to folks and just say “Do you accept Jesus? Yes? Go forth and be merry then!” No, after that point of accepting and understanding, one should notice a change in their life and how they live it – nothing we do will be from God unless we fully understand that gift, realize He paid the price for our sins, and turn from worldly things. I honestly can’t say I’m comfortable with any ‘pagan’ who professes that understanding in .6 seconds (or less) enough to walk away fully knowing they’re saved. You’re right: their own act of Salvation can happen in an instant. What I’m hearing James saying is that you cannot lead someone to Christ in 60 seconds – directed at those out there doing the leading. The caddy example 2 minutes before this statement is the basis for this context. I’m not sure how you guys draw the line you do on this one – it would have never crossed my mind listening to that statement at the end of the caddy story that he’s somehow talking about your own personal Salvation and that it takes a while to get it. It only takes an instant, but your life choices should be reflective of that Salvation and change should show through in your life. If you don’t see any change, than did you truly receive the gift of Salvation? I still don’t understand how you guys claim such a thing as looking at how you live your life after being saved is not Biblical and tag it as heresy.

    Again, the audience in this speech consists mostly of steadfast believers. He’s speaking to pastors or students about to go out to the world to help save people. I hear you and John keep saying he’s confusing Salvation with discipleship…it’s just not so. He’s preaching on how to use your discipleship to ensure people know what they’re getting into. You’re the target audience, not the unsaved – Jimmy Swaggart (as you brought up) may be Saved, but probably could have benefited from a little reflection about whether his actions were Christ-like. He neglected/ignored/drifted/swayed from the Salvation he was given – and he would have realized that had he taken two steps back and opened up his Bible. The “easy believism” James is talking about comes forth from the absence of the Bible in churches – he made that clear every time he said those two words. Maybe that’s a different definition of “easy believism” than you have. Anyway, at the 14 minute mark he specifically says the Bible does not teach that you can lose your Salvation. There’s never any mention in this message that we’re in control of our Salvation. However, to combat the easy believism (churches preaching Salvation without the Word of God), Hebrews lays out how you can know you’re Saved. Simple message – not sure why it’s come to heresy, but so be it.

    Dave, I completely agree with all you said in your last post. I still hold firm that you guys are trying to fit this square message about knowing you’re Saved into a round hole of Salvation by works. To me, he’s simply trying to equip those in the audience with the tools to avoid the mistakes a guy like Hybels makes, as well as build a Biblical confidence that you are Saved if you go to a place absent of Bibles but think you are. I respect and admire what you and John say on your show about faith topics, and learn from you guys every week. Maybe someone can help out and answer those two questions above so I have some clarity on your views of Salvation and how to know you have it. I think that’s all I got on this subject, unless anyone poses some more questions to me – I’ve spent way too much time defending a man’s message that I had no part in. My link to James’ message is stuck in moderation, but I’d be interested to hear from anyone else out there that listens to it whether they view it as a “Salvation by works” message or a primer post-Salvation on how to know you truly received the gift given to you. It’s called “Keep up…Don’t Drift Away”, found on Moody’s audio website. Love the show, and look forward to the next subject to challenge me. Til then, hope everyone here has a great weekend with family and friends celebrating His birth,

    Joe

  6. The Parson /

    hey Joe,
    Where you going with that gun in your hand … (just kidding). Joe, I just posted the comments about the Wilderness that you missed. I think James spoke a couple of times that week and maybe you downloaded and listened to a different program, but the two remarks are posted on the page and yes, he did say it. You seem to be intellectually curious and spiritually honest. My advice would be the Hodges book, and even ‘So Great Salvation’ by Charles Ryrie; both men do a better job than I in exposing the Lordship, you must make a commitment view. It is very clear to me that MacDonald is a MacArthurite as some of his quotes are nearly verbatim from The Gospel According to Jesus. I even recommend that you read that book and cross reference the context of MacArthur’s doctrine.
    Merry Christmas again
    Spes Mea en Deo
    John

  7. B. Bauer /

    A Gross Misrepresentation of Free Grace Theology!, October 23, 2010
    from Amazon.com This review is from: The Gospel According to Jesus: What Is Authentic Faith? (Hardcover)
    This is a review of the 2008 edition of the book.

    I was quite surprised to see that Franklin Graham wrote the opening tribute to this edition of MacArthur’s book.

    The book is written by a scholar, MacArthur. In many areas of theology, such as on the hypostatic union and on the authenticity of Scripture, MacArthur is on the money. In this crucial area of theology, namely, the gospel, however, he promotes a “Lordship Salvation” message. As with all such teaching, MacArthur confuses justification with sanctification. As the title implies, the book cites DISCIPLESHIP passages from the synoptic gospels, as well as other texts written to believers, as if they were calls to salvation! It is no longer enough for a person to become saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16; Acts 16:30-31; Titus 3:5). To MacArthur and other Lorship Faith teachers, a person coming to salvation must promise a lifetime of commitment to God with a subsequent following through of this promise for the rest of her life or be in danger of not having done ENOUGH to merit eternal life. This front-loading of the gospel plants unreasonable demands on a person coming to faith in Christ; it destroys assurance of faith, leaving her forever living in doubt and fear of not having done enough.

  8. davesteiger /

    Ray,

    Yepper, you bet, there was not only a teaching last night, it was outstanding. John’s teachings always move me, and it’s not simply because I’m biased!

    ;^)

    Merry Christmas,

    Dave…

  9. davesteiger /

    Hi Joe,

    You know, I was thinking about you comment regarding Osteen, and the fact is that he doesn’t teach “easy believeism.” He’s worse. He not only teaches salvation by works, but he mixes in pretty much unadulterated universalism, as well.

    Joel does not deny that a “good” Muslim, or a “good” Hindu can be Saved. He says we cannot know the eternal fate of such individuals. I know this because I saw him say so live on the Larry King show. Odd thing was, even Larry King, theological dolt that his is, saw a problem with that. When pressed for a clarification Osteen did not backtrack.

    Even his assembly was taken aback, as he had to go into “PR” mode immediately thereafter. Of course, all was forgiven.

    So, no, Osteen, who I believes KNOWS what the Bible says about who is Saved and how, is ASHAMED of the Gospel, and feared for his reputation on the King show. Franklin Graham, trust me on this, I’m 100% on this, would NEVER have said what Osteen said.

    Osteen is either an ashamed Believer, or he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing – we have to decide. At any rate, I would also add that he’s a narcissist, as well, as he just cannot seem to stop talking about “self.” Just look at the titles of his books, you see.

    As for Pastor MacDonald, he said, without any need for context, “You cannot go from Pagan to profession of faith in 60 seconds.” That sums it it up for me.

    And he was kinda right, of course, you don’t need 60 seconds, or 6 seconds or .6 seconds; you only need an instant.
    Joe, I mean this, I am being sincere here, I think he still believes that. You should ask him. Ask him to teach on Salvation again, see if he still blends Salvation and Discipleship. So long as that happens the result, the only result, can be “Lordship Salvation.”

    See, the Harvest doctrinal statement (rightly) claims that once Salvation has come to the Believer that he/she is “no longer their own.” Beautiful, that’s correct! But then the “Lordship Salvationist” will immediately begin to tell you how that Salvation can be lost.

    How can WE be in control of our Salvation if HE is “immediately” in control and we’re no longer our own, you see? If it’s Christ in control, it’s not us. If it’s Christ Who has us then what we do, however great or miserable as Believers, how can we ever “lose” what we’re not in control of in the first place?

    If you can tell me you will have shown us whether or not you are a “Lordshipper” or a Grace Believer.

    As I stated earlier, you seem like a great guy, I know you’re Saved and that we’re Brothers in the Lord. What would make it a beautiful thing, Joe, is to hear you reply that you fully understand that no matter what you do this side of Heaven, how good or how evil, that you cannot, under ANY circumstances, lose the Salvation that was given to you FREELY by God via your faith in the finished Crosswork of Christ.

    And *if* you do that you may need to consider whether or not you remain at Harvest.

    Merry Christmas & God Bless,

    Dave…

    P.S. – I woke up with a ‘blurry’ left eye that won’t quit, and did try to proofread this post, please forgive me if it’s a wreck.

  10. Sorry just checking…

    Was there no bible study yesterday, or last Thursday, because the mp3s aren’t up.

    Thanks again guys…

  11. John – I’ll be happy to listen to your message on this (link?), but probably can’t dedicate the time for a week or so. To answer your question, no, I’ve not heard of Lordship Salvation before you guys. My understanding just from listening to the last couple shows (and wikipedia!) is that it’s some sort of Salvation by works. If that’s wrong, then maybe that’s the disconnect. My Obama reference is only to highlight that we need to reflect on our actions to see if we’re truely living for Christ, which is what I took James’ message to be about. In terms of the thief on the cross, is that the standard for how we should help others come to Christ? Personally, for others in his situation I’d hope they comes to the realization quickly – if so, God’s grace certainly can save them. Unfortunately for them, I’d probably take too long explaining why I believe and why they should too (you can see that droning on in my comments).

    Wordsworth – “Easy-believism” is what Osteen provides. “Cheap grace” is sold by those that don’t include the Word of God in their message of Salvation. If not being on that side makes me a Lordshipper, sign me up. I’m not sure what you’re saying in quoting me about understanding His sacrifice. In fact, I’m thoroughly confused now as to how you become a follower of Christ – truely saved – if you’ve never contemplated anything about it. I’m not quite getting how you are living your life for Christ if you don’t understand what was given to you. Is this all just semantics? Your definition of Salvation I agree with…Maybe our disconnect is you thinking I’m trying to make Salvation out to be more than that (I’m not). But past that understanding of what Salvation is, what’s the next step? Is everyone on earth walkling around saved? There’s no act to do according to you – that’d be discipleship if there were (which I’m assuming by everyone’s comments here plays no role in coming to Christ?). Straying from Salvation is a reference to Heb 2:1-4. Some translations say “ignoring”, others “drifting”. I guess I’m just not sure how you come to be a believer without any thought into it. If there was never an act of your acknowledging anything then honestly what are you and how’d you get there? How do you become saved? Speaking for myself, I *did* make a commitment to try to live my life for Christ. I thought about it and came to believe in that gift of Salvation that was being offered to me. If you want to tell me that wasn’t my choice, but God’s will imposed on me, fine – whatever on details, I just thank God I came to understand it (I love a soverign God). Also, I was being facecious about ‘speed-saving’, not accusatory. That part of my comment *was* on discipleship because that’s the context of what James was talking about in that sound byte.

  12. Wordsworth /

    Great segment guys, I too was disappointed in that speech. 2006? The phrases ‘easy-believism’ and ‘cheap grace’ are the dead give-aways that you are dealing with a Lordshipper. Joe, I’m afraid your own words betray you, “Once you do understand that sacrifice, can you make the commitment in 60 seconds?” Salvation is not about ‘making a committment’ (the guys are right, that’s disciplehsip). Salvation is not giving your life to God, It’s God sending His Son so that you might have life through Him. And to be fair the guys never talked about ‘speed-saving’ are whatever you tried to imply. I’m afraid that is sorely out of context. ‘Straying from Salvation?’ I know there are spiritual and carnal believers and we are all on that continuum and ebb and flow depending on our will being in line with His; but I must say I’ve never heard of ‘straying from Salvation.’ A new one.
    If I may though, an ‘uncommon recommendation. Zane Hodges of Dallas Theological Seminary wrote a book called ‘Absolutely Free’ that exposes and destroys the heresy of Lordship Salvation. A must read. Maybe you could have him on the show because he was one of the first to speak up against MacArthur.
    By the way, I believe Moody distanced themselves from MacArthur over ‘The Gospel According to Jesus.’ Not printed by Moody Press, right?
    Blessed Holy Day gents

  13. John Kirkwood /

    Joe,
    Listen to the whole segments at gracebeliever.com. Actually, you are the only one taking anything out of context. I did ten hours on this awful message and if you listened to the whole message and still defend it; you are a Lordship Salvationist; You are confusing Salvation and Discipleship. I don’t care to argue about a man but we are to weigh doctrine and no that is a direct quote from John MacArthur and if you read his Gospel according to Jesus you would see that he is the ‘High Priest’ of Lordship Salvation. Did you notice how many times you said “James” in your rebuttal? Have you ever heard of Lordship Salvation? I’d ask you to download our series on it and maybe there will be more understanding. The quotes speak for themselves, that is why we played his own words.
    Anyway, thanks for listening and Merry Christmas.
    By the way, I don’t believe Barack Obama is A Christian or a Muslim by his own words in the Cairo speech, and we never said anything about praying a prayer (now who’s out of context) but how long would the Philippian Jailer or the thief on the cross have to examine their life or have you or “James” examine it for them. Again, it’s quite clear in the message that he uses Paul’s use of disqualified in relation to Salvation. I think when your head stops spinning listen to it again. If his keynote speech doesn’t get you angry then please tell me the difference between Salvation and Discipleship.
    Merry Christmas

  14. One more quick thing – I’ll make it easy should any of your listeners want to download the message you got the sound bytes from, it’s here (for $3.50):

    http://www.moodyaudio.com/products/50761/keep-up%E2%80%A6don%E2%80%99t-drift-away

  15. Took the liberty of listening early this week ahead of Christmas travel as I knew you were going to address James and Harvest – it certainly “got brung”! I gotta say, after listening to the show I was a little shocked – I’d never heard James speak on works as a means to Salvation as you presented. Certainly that’s a conflict from what I’ve heard and what their website says. Man, you got my blood pressure going…towards James! So much so, that I had to hear that message for myself. So I did go and download it. And wow, (trying to stay civil here) did you guys ever distort some context there. Wow..Heresy? And John MacAurther’s a heretic too? WOW. I’ll touch on a few points, trying to keep in mind that we’re on a comment thread, but I’ll probably get long again (sorry).

    Never does James say works make you saved. The whole crux of the message is “do I have it”? Well how do you know you have it? You specifically – is it because you prayed the prayer? That’s it? Sure, that’s all it takes – but in terms of proof, having it means you’re growing in Christ daily. His message is directed to those that believe they’ve taken step 1 to Salvation, not those that we’re trying to save. Step 2, grow in Christ. How do you *know* if you’re growing in Christ? BY HOW YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE. If one wants assurance that they aren’t straying from their Salvation, just look at your life. This is all James is saying, but you take it so far out of context, my head is still spinning. By your definition, Obama will be breaking bread with you up in Heaven. Why? Because Obama prayed that prayer – he points out that specific time when he came to Christ. Fortunately, he can’t lose it…but did he ever have it guys? Do his life choices reflect that Salvation? The whole point of this message by James is exactly what you’re railing against Lakewood and Saddleback for – where the Word is not present, the price becomes cheaper (as pointed out by the Matthew Parable of the Weeds).

    Gone in 60 seconds…he’s not talking about the actual act of being born again. This one is the most obvious example of your twisting of what he’s saying. The example he gives of the caddy is all you need to see where he’s coming from. You can’t go from zero understanding to understanding the sacrifice Jesus made for us in 60 seconds. Heck, you can’t even who Jesus was if you were speed talking. Once you do understand that sacrifice, can you make the commitment in 60 seconds? Like you said, that’s too much time! So true. But to lead someone to Christ takes time and effort on your part to make sure they understand what they’re given. This was a direct talk to guys like Osteen and that ilk – I’m surprised you tried to pass it as otherwise when you know what that comment was surrounded by. Again, he specifically points out the pursuit of pleasure and going to church as a consumer as signs that you may not be getting it. I’d be interested in knowing when one of you were able to walk up to someone wholly unsaved (like a pagan!) and get them to Salvation in less than 60 seconds. And tell me with a straight face you walked away from that 20 second talk with said pagan fully knowing they were with Jesus.

    I think the biggest mistake made in your analysis is the trying to pass off what James is saying as direction instead of reflection. He is simply asking you to look at your life in reflection to make sure you understand what you’re doing. Sin is our nature – we stray. Is that God leading us to sin? No, it’s ourselves. Salvation is not our own doing, but we can drift from it. If your point is to simply keep the blinders on / full speed ahead / pay no attention to what you’ve been doing to show others you represent Christ, then we have a serious disagreement. If your life choices show a pattern of a continual perpetual sinning nature then you probably are straying from your Salvation. Can’t lose it (as James makes abundantly clear in the message), but you may want to think about if you ever had it in the first place. You’d certainly not be making any strides towards living through Christ. Maybe there’s some direction there – maybe the reflection will help you make good choices down the road – maybe avoiding compromising situations become second nature. That direction (meant for the person trying to live for Christ) is harmless, not heresy. One last thing: there was nothing in this message about those in the desert losing anything. He doesn’t even mention that part of scripture at all, so not sure where that came from. You tended to point to verses that backed up your point, but neglected to mention the verses he’s pointing to for his backing. *In context* what he’s saying makes sense to me – and is backed up Biblically. The Bible CLEARLY says that we need to examine ourselves – there are tons of verses to back that up (I like 1 Cor 11:23-31).

    There’s more I could try to address on this, but really it’s not my fight. I’m not a follower of James, I’m a follower of Jesus (there’s a quote for ya to bash on the show). What I will do is see if James would want to respond at all – I don’t know that he would, or if he’d even bat an eye at critics, but I’ll try to get you a rebuttal from the man himself if he’d want to. My in-laws are friends with the MacDonalds and my wife is in one of those evil small groups with his wife so hopefully my asking him to take a listen won’t fall into a black hole (but you never know). Again, I appreciate you taking some time on the show to address my concerns – and I still enjoyed your other segments :). “To be clear”, I never was trying to get you to buy into a big church concept or even tune in daily to James. I simply wanted to know why he was lumped in with guys like Hybels and Warren, but I have to say I’m a little disappointed with this attempt to highlight your issues. Fair enough – at the end of the day I know I’m saved (I even go a step further and reflect on whether my actions are Christ-like to affirm that knowledge). As such, I’m going to go celebrate my Savior’s birth this weekend, and wish you both a very Merry Christmas as well!

    Thanks again for the entertaining show and forum…Take care,

    Joe

  16. Artskoe /

    While I was in high school I had 3 math teachers. The first one taught the “new” math, and the 2nd two were classic math teachers. Unfortunately, the one teacher totally messed me up. That’s what a bad doctrine teacher can do!

    I thank God while I was at Moody 1200 or more students and faculty would stand and sing, “Great is THY faithfulness, oh, God our Father.” He is faithful to all who believe!

    Merry Christmas to all!

    ~Artskoe

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